Thursday, April 26, 2007

You have to read this discussion....

After the pod discussions were underway, SLsent out a notice that they were going down unexpectedly, so the class logged out and held a whole group discussion.

Ms. Ivey posted discussion questions again today that were quite engaging! At one point she sent out a group notice that read: "Don't forget to make connections to the real world. Think about what is happening in the world today...recent news events, ect. There is much to talk about when it comes to good and evil."

Before they logged out, I grabbed a copy of the chat from the Snow Crash group --

This is an unedited, unabridged log of the discussion held today by the student group who are reading Snow Crash: (Please remember these are 8th grade students!) The remarkable thing that Ms. Ivey observed is that in a typical RL classroom setting, these kids would never be able to get to the level of thought and focus as they do in SL!
Here is the log:

[10:02] Platform-Two whispers: Platform-Two now ascending.
[10:02] Liu Hillburn: yes!
[10:02] Liu Hillburn: =-/
[10:02] Tenore Hillburn: we are here
[10:02] Liu Hillburn: no we're not
[10:02] You: ok guys lets begin our discussion
[10:02] Tenore Hillburn: is the capacity for good learned or innate?
[10:02] You: tenore why dont you start
[10:02] Liu Hillburn: about hiro
[10:02] Liu Hillburn: well
[10:02] Liu Hillburn: the main topic is about evil and good
[10:03] Liu Hillburn: is it learned or innate?
[10:03] Liu Hillburn: i think he would say...
[10:03] Liu Hillburn: it can be innate, but also learned
[10:03] Liu Hillburn: it's' just one, its both
[10:03] Tenore Hillburn: i think he would say both, too
[10:03] Liu Hillburn: its not just one
[10:03] Liu Hillburn: clifford?
[10:03] Tenore Hillburn: people naturally have a capacity for good, but it can grow over time
[10:04] You: I think the capacity for good is learned, because a person may be disposed to things, yet it is their descions which decide their fate
[10:04] Tenore Hillburn: but we have to answer from hiro's pov
[10:04] Liu Hillburn: well, human nature is influenced
[10:04] Liu Hillburn: the basic human nature is arrogance and selfish
[10:04] Liu Hillburn: ness
[10:05] You: well hiro, seems rather trusting and believing in the capacity for people (yt) to become more than they are already
[10:05] Liu Hillburn: but as a child, being surrounded by altruism affects them
[10:05] Liu Hillburn: i know hiro wants y.t. to be good
[10:05] Liu Hillburn: he believves that she can be "good"
[10:06] Tenore Hillburn: hiro also leads a somewhat unethical life.....he worked for the mafia..he apparently has done drugs...
[10:06] Liu Hillburn: somewhat unethical?
[10:06] You: Yes but "good" is a matter of opinion
[10:06] Liu Hillburn: thats what i just asked
[10:06] Liu Hillburn: how would you, personally , define good and evil?
[10:06] You: True he has been unethical in the past
[10:07] Liu Hillburn: anyone wanna answer my question?
[10:07] Liu Hillburn: how do you guys, personally, define good and e vil?
[10:08] Tenore Hillburn: if u want to go there, u must give ur opinion as to the truth being relative
[10:08] Liu Hillburn: it is...
[10:08] Tenore Hillburn: u can't define good and evil if good is relative
[10:08] Tenore Hillburn: *they are relative
[10:08] You: I would see good as the balance within a soceity wheirein people perform deeds good for others
[10:08] You: however evil implys greed
[10:08] Liu Hillburn: yes
[10:08] You: and selfishness
[10:08] Liu Hillburn: =-D
[10:09] You: you agree liu
[10:09] Liu Hillburn: yes
[10:09] You: well tenore, what do you think?
[10:09] You: if its a matter of relativity, well how do you feel
[10:09] Liu Hillburn: altruism, good, is i believe trying to help other people who have no ties to you, strangers. doing it for the sake of helping someone else
[10:10] Tenore Hillburn: how do u possibly define good and evil as a matter of opinion? don't u believe that there must be an absolute boundary for it?
[10:10] Liu Hillburn: selflessness
[10:10] You: Yes, however that boundry cannot be universal
[10:10] Liu Hillburn: an example of pure altruism, may be like sacrificing yourself for a stranger
[10:10] Liu Hillburn: yes
[10:10] Liu Hillburn: its personal definition
[10:10] Liu Hillburn: ...tenore...
[10:10] You: you look at it from a hyper-religious perspective where i see it as a matter of men
[10:11] Liu Hillburn: it is true...
[10:11] You: you see, it is impossible for a person to be truely good, or evil if noone sees what they do
[10:12] Tenore Hillburn: but what if therre is someone who sees everything they do? u know what i'm implying
[10:12] Liu Hillburn: now, what do you think hiro would say
[10:12] You: like a god
[10:12] Tenore Hillburn: exactly
[10:12] Liu Hillburn: dont get offtopic
[10:12] Liu Hillburn: !!!
[10:12] Tenore Hillburn: but we're getting off topic
[10:12] Liu Hillburn: ok
[10:12] Liu Hillburn: back to the main question
[10:13] Liu Hillburn: how do you think hiro would respond?
[10:13] Liu Hillburn: is evil/good learned or innate
[10:13] You: well the idea of a god, I am not an atheist btw, maks the concept of good and evil obselete because god creates every individual
[10:13] Liu Hillburn: omg...
[10:13] Liu Hillburn: off topic!!!!!
[10:13] You: sorry but this is on topic
[10:13] Tenore Hillburn: hold on li
[10:13] Tenore Hillburn: liu....
[10:13] You: its about good and evil
[10:13] You: now tenore as u wer sayiong
[10:13] Liu Hillburn: .....
[10:14] Tenore Hillburn: well if God creates every individual of person then they each have their own personal boundaries as to where they c
[10:14] Tenore Hillburn: can be led into evil....however the boundary itself is absolute
[10:14] You: in accordance to each individual as youve said
[10:15] Liu Hillburn: religion.
[10:15] Liu Hillburn: it affects humanitarian decision?
[10:15] You: true
[10:15] You: i mean look at the crusades
[10:16] Liu Hillburn: that was completely influenced by religion
[10:16] Liu Hillburn: or by an impression of a religion
[10:16] Ivey Zeami: How is it going?
[10:16] You: but if hiro believes in a god, then his opinion is influenced by religion
[10:16] Liu Hillburn: but he doesnt
[10:16] Liu Hillburn: remember in the begining of the book?
[10:17] Tenore Hillburn: it's good ms ivey
[10:17] Liu Hillburn: its obvious hes an athiest
[10:17] You: so until we know specifically than the question can remain unanswered
[10:17] Tenore Hillburn: we went into religion
[10:17] You: hiro?
[10:17] Ivey Zeami: interesting
[10:17] Ivey Zeami: why religion?
[10:17] Liu Hillburn: he goes into religion
[10:17] Tenore Hillburn: because religion has always set boundaries for good and evil
[10:17] Liu Hillburn: we believe that religion affects one's altruism, or impression of altruism
[10:17] You: religiono affects the decisions of a person in this type of question
[10:17] You: religion
[10:17] Liu Hillburn: it defines is
[10:17] Liu Hillburn: *it
[10:18] Ivey Zeami: good point tenore
[10:18] You: its the ultimate creator of boundary for man
[10:18] Ivey Zeami: and who sets that for us?
[10:18] Liu Hillburn: we do
[10:18] Tenore Hillburn: well some belive we do...some belive a god
[10:18] Liu Hillburn: we set it for ourselves, basically
[10:18] Tenore Hillburn: *believe
[10:18] You: and if we allow our opinions to be influenced by it, we become succeptable to both good and evil
[10:18] Ivey Zeami: it's all up to the believer
[10:18] Ivey Zeami: i suppose
[10:18] You: For example tenore, the crusades
[10:19] Liu Hillburn: the crusades were right in the name of religion
[10:19] You: well so was 9/11 but that doesnt make it ok
[10:19] Liu Hillburn: all the many wars fought over that same region were for religion
[10:19] Liu Hillburn: *they THOUGHT it was right
[10:20] You: its as weve said a matter of opinin
[10:20] Tenore Hillburn: many wars were fought for the freedom of setting your own boundaries
[10:20] Liu Hillburn: yes
[10:20] Tenore Hillburn: the revolution
[10:20] Liu Hillburn: most wars...
[10:20] You: however the world at large believes, as do i obviously, that it was wrong
[10:20] Liu Hillburn: were all fought along that same basic guideline
[10:21] Liu Hillburn: but to the actual was right and proper
[10:21] You: well when you think about it religion is just ideals built into belief
[10:21] Liu Hillburn: they were blinbded by it
[10:21] Liu Hillburn: *blinded as you might say
[10:21] Tenore Hillburn: but if it was wrong, then are the guidelines set by that religion wrong? that just supports the theory that their has to be an absolute truth
[10:21] You: everyone has ideals, so when you get others to buy into them you get harm
[10:22] You: People are all too willing to fall into the cycle of belief in one thing
[10:22] Liu Hillburn: it's personal fault
[10:22] You: they tend to drop morality, in the name of these ideas
[10:22] Liu Hillburn: but people in general, are th at way
[10:22] You: all people
[10:22] Liu Hillburn: do you guys know of jonestown?
[10:22] Liu Hillburn: wait
[10:23] Liu Hillburn: do you guys know of jonestown?
[10:23] You: no i dont
[10:23] Liu Hillburn: well...
[10:23] Liu Hillburn: there was a cult
[10:23] Tenore Hillburn: the koolaid
[10:23] Liu Hillburn: yes
[10:23] Liu Hillburn: the mass suicide
[10:23] Tenore Hillburn: i know what you was in the name of religion
[10:23] Liu Hillburn: the people involved
[10:23] You: oh yeah i know it was on family guy, parodyd
[10:23] Liu Hillburn: alyes
[10:23] Liu Hillburn: yes
[10:23] Liu Hillburn: but u gett my point, right?
[10:24] You: thats where you get drinkin the proverbial kool aid, something clifford blezinsky likes to say
[10:24] You: btw hes a game designer
[10:24] Liu Hillburn: basically
[10:24] Liu Hillburn: thats like in the book
[10:24] Liu Hillburn: snowcrash
[10:25] Liu Hillburn: but i dont believe it was in the name of religion
[10:25] Liu Hillburn: was it?
[10:25] You: true, so mayb snow crash is a metaphore for religion
[10:25] Liu Hillburn: possibly
[10:25] Liu Hillburn: that man
[10:25] Tenore Hillburn: i think so
[10:25] Liu Hillburn: l bob rife?
[10:25] You: and how it kills man and clouds judgement
[10:25] Liu Hillburn: or lagos?
[10:25] You: like killing an avatar, and crashing his system
[10:25] Liu Hillburn: he's basically the mastermind
[10:26] You: well true
[10:26] Ivey Zeami: You guys are doing an awesome job. I'm going to check out another group, bu it has been my pleasure to read your thoughts.
[10:26] Tenore Hillburn: Ok miss ivey
[10:26] Liu Hillburn: ok
[10:26] You: however if you think of it like that than jesus is the mastermind of the crusades
[10:26] You: its he people that give belief power
[10:26] Liu Hillburn: different
[10:26] Liu Hillburn: the church
[10:27] You: like how junkies give drug lords power
[10:27] Liu Hillburn: called for the 1st, and the 2nd
[10:27] Tenore Hillburn: it was the churhc not jesus
[10:27] You: true
[10:27] Liu Hillburn: iti may not be the thought or the belief
[10:27] Tenore Hillburn: they decided the land was theirs
[10:27] You: but the church "claims" jesus is the influence
[10:27] Liu Hillburn: *its the distributor
[10:27] Liu Hillburn: in this case
[10:27] Liu Hillburn: lagos
[10:27] You: So in the end snowcrash is probably an operation run by raven
[10:27] Liu Hillburn: .
[10:27] Tenore Hillburn: but that simply means they are assuming they know what he wants
[10:27] Liu Hillburn: yes
[10:27] Liu Hillburn: and L. bob rife
[10:28] You: Did u ever see transformers?
[10:28] Liu Hillburn: tell us
[10:28] Tenore Hillburn: when i was little
[10:28] You: well the decepticon leader, megatron, had all the power
[10:28] Liu Hillburn: adn with it he infected everyone else?
[10:28] Second Life: The Grid is coming down in a few minutes, for an hour; please save your work and log off. Refer to the Linden Blog for more information.
[10:28] You: however the character starscream staged a revolt and took over
[10:29] You: almost like the church has done o jesus
[10:29] You: ok guys lets go
[10:29] Liu Hillburn: ok
[10:29] Tenore Hillburn: then u have to determin

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